Author Topic: $100  (Read 214 times)

Offline 1b2a

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
$100
« on: March 24, 2020, 11:02:06 PM »
$100 if incinerate can make random teams an option. Feel free to pledge as well.

And fix sprock and why did you nerf sheep speed scroll?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 11:02:27 PM by 1b2a »

Offline Incinerate

  • Mapmaker
  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 1111
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 12:23:22 AM »
random teams is too much work, need 6k LOL

.. sprock got nerfed cause im fedup of hearing about the stalemates he causes and some ppl was asking for sprock to be nerfed... so what was the issue of sprock? stat spam.. .. so how do u tackle that?  make it cost minerals.. Its not like the stun is any less. it just means u gotta think when  u use it this time rather than always casting it without thought.   

Cast it when you have that game sense that you know ur base might be in danger.


And 3 , i didnt do anything to sheep speed scroll.

Offline Strangelove

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 01:11:52 AM »
New sprock change was bad. Please reverse. This furthers the snowball effect that hurts teams that are behind because they can’t stop enemies feeding off of them.

There was nothing wrong with sprocks before. There were a few vocal noobs, but they are noobs. Don’t listen to them.

Also please reverse the change you did with the teleport scroll. Being able to sell it for 125 minerals if you repicked was good. Anyone complaining about the ghost is a noob. That they can’t handle the micro of a single extra unit is proof.

Also, please make it so you can’t repick into sheep or tassadar. Please. It is great to have the option to play those heroes but don’t force someone too. It leads to bad games.

As I said before, I appreciate you putting time into updating the game but these recent changes are not good. I feel that you have lost touch of the meta of the game and these changes are leading to poor quality games.

If you share editor access I can help fix. OR play a few games so you can understand my points.

Thanks.

Offline Incinerate

  • Mapmaker
  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 1111
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 01:28:36 AM »
for the sprock change im still up in the air.  its cheaper now to get sprock for other stuff...like invis .. and in order to reach just the price of the old sprock u got to cast trap 8 times. So in many ways it might actually be better in the early  mid phases of the game as you have access to stat trap for less money while solving the late game spam of it.    For late game the void ship was seen to be an issue if sprocks cant readily spam so what did i do ? nerf the void ship cargo capacity.   Adapt to the changes.

- definately not bringing teleport scroll resale.. how on earth anybody thought this was intentional?  when you random the first hero its not resellable but the repick hero is resellable? What im more curious about is why it wasnt reported earlier. anybody could clearly see that it wasnt intentional...       

The way how Zealot frenzy goes, the first mass is to be as clean as possible (no mercs) or Dirty as possible ( opening the flood gates to all mercs at the start).    People didnt wanna see mercs at the start, even when i just proposed to bring back mercs at the start and put in a counter merc.. but its like the exclusive want a very you must play the game multiple times to know about this "sell tp "  for early ghost in a very specific repicked situation  when other players wont know anything about it and start off behind in a all random game. It was never intended.. and its now been fixed. Just like how i forget to add the latest heroes to the repick trigger hero pool, i didnt really check specifically what teleport scroll item i was giving to the repicked heroes.. cause i had 2 variants, one intended for the free one every heroes would get and the resellable one in the shop.     The shop one by accident was the teleport scroll repick trigger was giving you. Adapt

-i  will make it so that sheep you cannot repick into for the next patch, i agree, and its because i believe sheep can be hardcounterd in a game if people know how to play vs sheep . so it makes no sense to force sheep , but tassadar i disagree with to be removed from repick.

sharing editor access i will never do because i disagree with 90 % of what people suggest .   like for instance this teleport scroll giving money...       Did you know boots of speed also used give money? why you think it was removed.. too keep the early mass fight as clean as possible, yet u want a teleport scroll to give resale value on a repicked hero.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 01:46:16 AM by Incinerate »

Offline Strangelove

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 02:58:26 AM »
I guess we disagree on what the game should be then.

In my mind, if all players are of equal skill level they should each stand a chance to win the game. With the current balance of the heroes, this is not possible.

Right now picking certain heroes solidifies the outcome of the game with little option to outplay it.

The changes I suggest remove the importance on picking a particular hero and place more emphasis on the players ability to impact the game using what is available to him.

The changes you implement further enforce the imbalance of certain heroes and solidify the advantages they provide.

I understand this game is not 100% inherently based on skill, but the percentage of luck is getting higher than I would prefer.

My suggestions are to balance out the game to make it more enjoyable and less of a one sided mess.

I welcome other vet players to chime in as well, but it seems that we are dumbing down the game to cater to players less skilled while placing a heavier emphasis on hero choice.


Offline Kaiser

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 152
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 11:02:03 AM »
I would say Luck is most of the game tbh, take for instance this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCO-0FwLSkw
Kiley's thors covered my base almost instantly (aka couldn't target my base right away) and then my hero (chuck) revived and I stunned a good portion of his thors,
the timing that his thors covered my base gave my hero enough time to spawn and stun his thors, if luck didn't throw Kiley under the bus I would have been dead.

Offline 1b2a

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 12:07:07 PM »
New sprock change was bad. Please reverse. This furthers the snowball effect that hurts teams that are behind because they can’t stop enemies feeding off of them.

There was nothing wrong with sprocks before. There were a few vocal noobs, but they are noobs. Don’t listen to them.

This 1000x over (though I disagree with everything else). Sprock is a defensive unit. Without it once you get a 3 upgrade deficit your game is over because they can push your base with mana advantage. It's making games more unbalanced that way. It costs minerals to sprock, but the towers still disappear! I would understand your argument on it being cheaper if they did not disappear, as is, nope.

Sheep spawns without speed scroll now. Not sure if this was intential? Bad change. unusuable nowadays, too many vets on

Incinerate, I give you $10 if you apply mana field to the whole map. I bet the game will get more fun that way.

And $6k is a lot.... maybe we can fundraise $500 lol?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 12:10:25 PM by 1b2a »

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 02:10:49 PM »
This 1000x over (though I disagree with everything else). Sprock is a defensive unit. Without it once you get a 3 upgrade deficit your game is over because they can push your base with mana advantage. It's making games more unbalanced that way. It costs minerals to sprock, but the towers still disappear! I would understand your argument on it being cheaper if they did not disappear, as is, nope.

Sheep spawns without speed scroll now. Not sure if this was intential? Bad change. unusuable nowadays, too many vets on

Incinerate, I give you $10 if you apply mana field to the whole map. I bet the game will get more fun that way.

And $6k is a lot.... maybe we can fundraise $500 lol?

I got sheep last night roughly 10pm PST and it came with speed, tp, boots. Random.

Offline Incinerate

  • Mapmaker
  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 1111
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2020, 12:56:12 AM »
I guess we disagree on what the game should be then.

In my mind, if all players are of equal skill level they should each stand a chance to win the game. With the current balance of the heroes, this is not possible.

Right now picking certain heroes solidifies the outcome of the game with little option to outplay it.

The changes I suggest remove the importance on picking a particular hero and place more emphasis on the players ability to impact the game using what is available to him.

The changes you implement further enforce the imbalance of certain heroes and solidify the advantages they provide.

I understand this game is not 100% inherently based on skill, but the percentage of luck is getting higher than I would prefer.

My suggestions are to balance out the game to make it more enjoyable and less of a one sided mess.

I welcome other vet players to chime in as well, but it seems that we are dumbing down the game to cater to players less skilled while placing a heavier emphasis on hero choice.


and my argument is, if we want it to be a game of more skill in the start, then we should just open the flood gates and let all mercs be chooseable at the start and have it a merc fest. the issue i have with teleport scroll having resell value is that this isnt currently the direction of the map, meaning we used to have early mercs in the game and it too was complained about alot .. because people would just spam them in the start and people who are new or only now trying to learn the game would get crushed by teams pretty much 5 minutes in no chance. . I even said the move was to dumb down the map a bit in that time so that not everybody feels compelled to "have to mass merc" in the beginning or lose.     this almost secret situation where if you random a hero then repick, u get a free merc for an advantage, then im sure alot of people knowing how good this advantage is , repicked no matter what hero they got just in order to get that ghost early to start sniping away.     REmember the ghost as well wasnt even supposed to be in first mass and initially he was on cooldown just like the rest of the mercs... and b4 ghost had unlimited snipes. But due to complaints about there being no way to debuff early game, i decided to allow ghost, but then snipe became an issue, so i limited the amount of snipes available per ghost. I was even considering removing snipe because of it messing up the first fight for a map that clearly has choosen to go the no merc for anybody at start. I disagree entirely with teleport scroll having resale value.         You know what  i can do? if you want teleport resale value back, how about i remove snipe from ghost.. would you like that?     "some how i doubt"
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 01:06:42 AM by Incinerate »

Offline Kaiser

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 152
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2020, 02:21:06 AM »
wtf? mercs don't = skill ……. most of them require the same amount of apm as blink stalker, some require less. lmfao "skill" that's literally the same thing as saying you should have to play multiple games to learn how
to -repick and sell your recall to get a ghost instantly. if you are going to be consistent with what you say, than you will nerf mercs and make it a more skillful game and not a knowledge base skill game with mercs being op

Offline 1b2a

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 05:25:09 PM »
wtf? mercs don't = skill ……. most of them require the same amount of apm as blink stalker, some require less. lmfao "skill" that's literally the same thing as saying you should have to play multiple games to learn how
to -repick and sell your recall to get a ghost instantly. if you are going to be consistent with what you say, than you will nerf mercs and make it a more skillful game and not a knowledge base skill game with mercs being op


100%

It's a tool to beat noobs, not something this game needs

Offline Strangelove

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 08:41:53 PM »
wtf? mercs don't = skill ……. most of them require the same amount of apm as blink stalker, some require less. lmfao "skill" that's literally the same thing as saying you should have to play multiple games to learn how
to -repick and sell your recall to get a ghost instantly. if you are going to be consistent with what you say, than you will nerf mercs and make it a more skillful game and not a knowledge base skill game with mercs being op

I don't get it.

If you increase variables (mercs), you make the game more difficult. If you decrease variables, you make the game easier.

You make weird points that do not make sense.

I understand where Incinerate is coming from, but seeing as he hasn't played a game in years, I'm finding it harder and harder to trust his insight and input into the game. At the end of it, it is his game so we are all subject to whatever he decides. I just wish he would listen more to the most active and experienced players.

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 09:39:09 PM »
I don't get it.

If you increase variables (mercs), you make the game more difficult. If you decrease variables, you make the game easier.

You make weird points that do not make sense.

I understand where Incinerate is coming from, but seeing as he hasn't played a game in years, I'm finding it harder and harder to trust his insight and input into the game. At the end of it, it is his game so we are all subject to whatever he decides. I just wish he would listen more to the most active and experienced players.

Well I have been playing this since it first came out. I agree some of the merces add a curve to the game that only hurts noobs. How many people do you see abusing the fuck out of them knowing it will only work against noobs? Swarm spawn? Queen tank, reapers with golm\flav ect.

Is this "curve" going to help noobs who ...cant even understand not standing in sheep fall for example. Or dumb fucks like Warstyle who stand in darkmus ulty and simply "I do not care I just want to play." Probably not....look at all vet lobbies I dont see that kinda cheese shit going on it is more determental to noobs who are the fresh blood this map will need to survive with its dwindling numbers on a dying game.
Now to someone as skilled as you are super, it is no big deal. But to new blood\retards like warstyle its going to discourage repeat playing. Look what stacked teams have done to this map. (yes I am just as guilty as every other swinging dick here with that) so im not trying to take a moral high ground on this, im simply being as objective (imo) as I can be.

So really in closing unless we are willing to accept ZF as a vet\decent player map only....may want to rein in the "variables" that are really hurt noobs singinifcantly more than other players. Just like children are our future.....noobs may be the future of this map. Just saying.

Offline Strangelove

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 10:49:09 PM »
ok lets dumb down this game to cater to the noobs... ya that makes sense

look at how every single competitive game is patched... they patch it to the top 1% of players. I don't get the argument of making this game easier so more people play. Sc2 by nature is a complicated game.

Offline 1b2a

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 10:55:25 PM »
ok lets dumb down this game to cater to the noobs... ya that makes sense

look at how every single competitive game is patched... they patch it to the top 1% of players. I don't get the argument of making this game easier so more people play. Sc2 by nature is a complicated game.

Actual games are balanced by MMR.... so if you main your best char you get placed with similar skills. Here you have MOMA who teams up with other top tiers against noobs.

It

Offline Strangelove

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2020, 11:25:13 PM »
I said patched not matched. They balance / patch / update the game to the top 1% of players, rather than dumbing down the game to cater to noobs.

And yes Moma mostly plays in groups because he is not good enough to solo carry. I don't blame him though, few players are.

Offline Kaiser

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 152
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2020, 07:10:01 AM »
I don't get it.

If you increase variables (mercs), you make the game more difficult. If you decrease variables, you make the game easier.

You make weird points that do not make sense.

I understand where Incinerate is coming from, but seeing as he hasn't played a game in years, I'm finding it harder and harder to trust his insight and input into the game. At the end of it, it is his game so we are all subject to whatever he decides. I just wish he would listen more to the most active and experienced players.

In what way does adding mercs that are very powerful and the cost is very cheap make the game more difficult? to reference a different game Destiny had a Rocket Launcher called the Gjallarhorn people on the destiny looking for group site wouldn't let you join their raid group unless you had it because it did so much damage that you could melt bosses without even playing the mechanics, now in destiny 2 there is no boss melter and people have to rely on their skill to play the game at a high level.
to reference another game Skyrim used to have a bug in which you could do 20 million damage with a bow, I didn't even wait for Alduin to land to 1 shot him.
whenever I get a ghost I'm always blown away at how fast I level and how much more minerals I get because of something that costs 225 minerals and can also make Darth pretty much useless, Egon's acid ability can be dispelled immediately, seribii attempts to heal his units? begone!
not sure where you picked up the idea that adding in something that requires little to no apm to use and is that powerful requires more skill than not using them is like your name, Strange, some of them don't even require any apm to use (liberator , swarm )

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2020, 11:23:49 AM »
ok lets dumb down this game to cater to the noobs... ya that makes sense

look at how every single competitive game is patched... they patch it to the top 1% of players. I don't get the argument of making this game easier so more people play. Sc2 by nature is a complicated game.

Yes it does make sense. If you want to keep the player base strong you will need to make the game fun to play. Getting slaughtered whole sale doesnt bring back alot of players.

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2020, 11:25:48 AM »
I said patched not matched. They balance / patch / update the game to the top 1% of players, rather than dumbing down the game to cater to noobs.

And yes Moma mostly plays in groups because he is not good enough to solo carry. I don't blame him though, few players are.

Oh the ego on this piece of shit lol. I seem to recall not too long ago you PMing me when I would group with Barcode and Raptor "come on my team to balance or you will be on my shit list." When I didnt you threw the biggest fucking childish tantrum so bitch please.

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2020, 11:47:00 AM »
ok lets dumb down this game to cater to the noobs... ya that makes sense

look at how every single competitive game is patched... they patch it to the top 1% of players. I don't get the argument of making this game easier so more people play. Sc2 by nature is a complicated game.

:"sc2 by nature is a complicated game". Well news flash the game is dying and ZF is no different. So either change and adapt to keep as many return players as possible. Your macho man stance held true when the game was thriving and I would have agreed with you but things change and like I said earlier adapt to it or continue to see the game degrade as much as it has. Fake accounts, stacking the fuck out of noob lobbies (yes I do it) because half the faggets in games are smurfs. Or lets be real here just having "feed teams' that decide the outcome of a game based on who can feed on them the most. If that is the future of this map, then ya.

I got lost in my thought so let me just say this. If you want to continue having games were noobs decide the outcome within the first 10 minutes of the game than fine. I know you love to feed off them super then flex at how good you are. Dont deny it everyone who knows you agrees some to your face like me most behind your back.
But me personally I would rather have noobs come back for lots of repeat games and get better which DERP helps the maps future.

Here is a good example. The last game I played I was solo against a 3 man pre made. Wabbit, moon, and forgot the other guy, (t4) Larry was on (t2) now on every normal game Larry would just WTF wipe the floor with me, doesnt even matter what hero I get, he is just that much better than me that isnt to be contested. I ended up winning that game because I had sheep and 5 noobs just stood in sheep fall on first send. That isnt the way I should get the win. I should have to earn it right?!?!? since this game was "ment to be hard" or whatever you said, not have it literally handed to me on a silver platter because the game was chalk full of noobs. Noobs who if the game was made a little more fun\playable might come back more then if they just see a bunch of flashy lights on their screen then suddenly they die.

Now lets address TKing (Yes I do it) when you got noobs feeding because they dont know any better....I was certainly one of them when I first started.....and yes Cuong or whatever his name was Tked me almost every game lol unless he had a large enough lead.  How they gona learn not to do that shit....repeat playing, how do you get more repeat players, you make the game fun, not just a slaughter fest.

Offline 1b2a

  • Artanis
  • *
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2020, 12:00:46 PM »
:"sc2 by nature is a complicated game". Well news flash the game is dying and ZF is no different. So either change and adapt to keep as many return players as possible. epeat playing, how do you get more repeat players, you make the game fun, not just a slaughter fest.

This, I think there should be a mechanic that limits base raping for the first 10 minutes or so. Be it mana drain from opponents or a health drain or a slow field. Something to make it better for noobs. As it is, the first vet team to get in and out of a noob base wins the game 90% of the time.

Offline Tragichero

  • Selendis
  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: $100
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2020, 12:09:21 PM »
This  may have been mentioned before so if it has...consider this me just agreeing with you, not being original.

The learning curve on this map is fucking steep. Anyone who argues that is full of shit. So why make that curve steeper?

Comeback minerals was IMO a great idea.

Personally I think we should look into ways to shallow the learning curve not steepen it.

One suggestion would be to let the host of the map pick between two different versions. One for vets with all the hard shiny objects, and another for a more casual\beginner player base. I do not know if that is possible or how hard it would be but it is just  suggestion perhaps people who know more about map editing can add to this with options that are the most viable.